Bungi Bill

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Posts by Bungi Bill

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  11

  ANy idea on the media coverage when the end did not come in 1975?

  by on the rocks in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs
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  Bungi Bill

  There was surprizingly very little said in the media about this:

  - I do recall one newspaper reporter in Australia making some sarcastic observation that "Armegeddon may be late!"

  - Apart from that, the only other media commentary that I have ever heard of was from John Dart, the Religious Affairs editor of the Los Angeles Times. Hereported that JWs had expected the end of the world to occur during the fall of 1975, but that now, this "isn't all that certain."

  Fred Franz's predictions could not have been that newsworthy! (I wonder why?).

  Bill.
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  76

  After Exiting the Witnesses - Are you O.K. Not Knowing about the Future ?

  by flipper in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  it seems that religion has always been considered the opium of the people.

  or at least many tend to gravitate towards religion to have or solidify some sort of future with a supreme being overlooking them hoping to have a reward either in heaven or in the jehovah's witnesses case - living forever in a " paradise earth ".

  it seems that people can't just live day to day and let each day come to them with whatever happens.

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  Bungi Bill

  Ditto Slimboyfat!

  Bill
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  18

  What was your reaction when first introduced to the "1914" doctrine?

  by highdose in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i studied the paradise book, you may remember there was a whole chapter it in about the dream, the tree getting chopped down, time, time and half a time etc.

  now i was very young ( but of course spirtualy mature (!

  ) when i studied this but i remember seeing the person explain this doctrine to me and it was like.... " ok now you see this scripture here?

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  Bungi Bill

  When I was first introduced to it, the events of WW1, 1914, 1919 etc. etc. etc. were less than 50 years previous; "The Generation" was that of my grandparents, who were still very much alive in their late 60s; and "The Balloon was going to go up" in 1975, less than ten years in the future.

  All very plausible stuff!

  Even after the 1975 #%*&$-up; as others here have noted, the WTS mounted an offensive in the 1980s, and things still looked positive.

  As time went on, though, one had to face up to it that the WTS was going to have to do some fast talking to explain way their previous utterances about "The Generation" :

  - once it became plain even to the dimest of dimwits that that "Generation" had in fact departed, yet still nothing had changed.

  That was about the time I woke up to the sham that the WTS is, and decided that I had already heard enough fast talking to last a lifetime!

  Bill.
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  76

  After Exiting the Witnesses - Are you O.K. Not Knowing about the Future ?

  by flipper in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  it seems that religion has always been considered the opium of the people.

  or at least many tend to gravitate towards religion to have or solidify some sort of future with a supreme being overlooking them hoping to have a reward either in heaven or in the jehovah's witnesses case - living forever in a " paradise earth ".

  it seems that people can't just live day to day and let each day come to them with whatever happens.

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  Bungi Bill

  The short answer - Yes, quite okay about it;

  - the JWs didn't know the future, anyway, they only thought that they did (or at the very least , tried to fool themselves - and everybody else - into believing that they did!)

  Given the choice, I would much rather own up and admit outright that the future is an unknown - than be shackled to an outfit that only thought it knew what the future held, but in reality knew no more than anyone else did. That is a much more harmful situation to be in, as you only end up frittering way your present.

  PAST = a canceled check.

  FUTURE = a promissory note

  PRESENT: cash in hand - use it while you have it!

  Bill.
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  1

  Rutherford's Power Grabbing

  by Band on the Run in

  1. jw
  2. experiences

  wikipedia has an article about the dispute over wt presidency in 1917. no reference to jws in the title.

  i read the article, obviously.

  something is wrong in these accounts.

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  Bungi Bill

  The actions of the deposed Board of Directors do suggest a measure incompetence on their part, together with a certain lack of moral courage.

  Perhaps being their being previously overshadowed by a strong president had something to do with this?

  - i.e. when their turn finally came in which they had to perform their duties as a Board of Directors, they were (i) Uncertain of how to go about doing this and (ii) Were possibly quite intimidated by the prospect of having to face down another strong leader - and one who also loud, rude , vulgar, aggressive , and utterly ruthless into the bargain!

  Bill.
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  16

  Can you be appointed as an Elder while attending college?

  by doubtful in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  what is the current stance on this issue?

  i've heard of a lot of ms who were going to university, and yet i've never heard of that being the case for elders.

  someone on this board also mentioned recently that they knew of man who was denied appointment as an elder despite otherwise excellent qualifications because he was a college student.

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  Bungi Bill

  EmptyInside,

  You make an excellent point that young persons going into the workforce directly from High School are every bit as exposed to "worldly influences" as those attending college.

  There is no scriptural basis for the WTS's downer on college education - and there is no logical basis for their portrayal of a typical university as being a den of iniquity (while, presumably, the workplace isn't!)

  The only conclusion one can reach from this is that scriptures are only for newly interested persons or weak publishers:

  - for "mature" JWs, directives from the Governing Body are what really count.

  In other words, it is all about conforming to a set of man-made rules - waking up to this fact some 17 years ago is what sent me fleeing from "The Truth."

  Bill.
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  53

  Do Active Witnesses Find Meetings Exciting?

  by Band on the Run in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  kh meetings were utter hell.

  the boredom, particularly for a child, was awful.

  i feel it was a form of child abuse.

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  Bungi Bill

  When I first began a "bible study" with the Witnesses, I heard them rave about their meetings. The impression that I was given was that the mere attendance of such a meeting at the Kingdom Hall was a truly mind-altering experience.

  After going to the Kingdom Hall for the first time, I just thought that I had somehow missed a point somewhere - and that underneath it all, there was still indeed a mind altering experience to be had! I even kept up this pretence through all the years that I was most active as a JW:

  - but, no, the reality was that the meetings at the Kingdom Hall were never at all in any way special.

  - and that is the good news!

  What has deeply disturbed me to this day is the way in which I followed the "counsel" of the WTS / FDS etc. etc. etc to bring my children to all the meetings;

  - no matter how much the subject under discussion was way beyond their level of comprehension.

  - irrespective of the fact that sitting for two hours of such mind numbing boredom is a challenge for an adult, and can only be torture for a small child.

  - disciplining the children when the inevitable happened and they got bored and made a disturbance. (I now feel particularly bad about having done that on all too many occassions).

  Those posters who have labelled this as child abuse are very correct, and it is this more than most else that I now resent the WTS for.

  Bill.
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  66

  New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures

  by Quendi in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i know this has been discussed before, but i want to reopen the topic.

  i am currently reading ray franz's memoir crisis of conscience and ran across this footnote with respect to the new world translation of the holy scriptures:.

  "the new world translation bears no translator's name and is presented as the anonymous work of the "new world translation committee.

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  Bungi Bill

  TD,

  Firstly, you have a PM!

  As to your pertinent remarks about subjectivity, I would suggest that this runs heavily through most of the matters that get discussed on this board.

  Regarding Bible doctrine and Bible translations, I often wonder how much of a proverbial "chicken and egg" situation we are dealing with here!

  i.e. Just to what extent did one result from the other?

  Bill.
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  66

  New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures

  by Quendi in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i know this has been discussed before, but i want to reopen the topic.

  i am currently reading ray franz's memoir crisis of conscience and ran across this footnote with respect to the new world translation of the holy scriptures:.

  "the new world translation bears no translator's name and is presented as the anonymous work of the "new world translation committee.

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  Bungi Bill

  It is indeed unfortunate that F.W. Franz did not have more formal education, because what he did receive was just enough to make him dangerous - particularly in the field of linguistics.

  Rather than being an unrelated matter, I would have thought that - as with any reference work - the credentials of its author (or translator) would be the very starting point of establishing its credibility. Certainly, all the reference works in my home library (mainly to do with the mechanical and elecrical engineering sciences) were carefully selected with that in mind.

  As to those "better educated men" who have "done worse", to have been better educated that Fred Franz would not have been too difficult:

  - one could have gone further than he did at university, and yet still only have a minimal education. (The old saying about "In the Land of the Blind, a One-eyed Man Rules Supreme" comes to mind here!)

  Any bible translation whose principal (or maybe only?) translator fell out of college after only a few years is to be treated with extreme caution. (In saying this, I realize that I risk the ire of those many JWs - such as I once was - who believe Frederick Franz to be one of "The World's foremost scholars of Greek and Hebrew")

  Bill.
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  66

  New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures

  by Quendi in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i know this has been discussed before, but i want to reopen the topic.

  i am currently reading ray franz's memoir crisis of conscience and ran across this footnote with respect to the new world translation of the holy scriptures:.

  "the new world translation bears no translator's name and is presented as the anonymous work of the "new world translation committee.

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  Bungi Bill

  TD,

  Acknowledged, FW Franz did study Classical Greek (I got my wucking fords muddled before - my apologies for that!).

  The Koine (or Biblical) Greek language was a lingua franca:

  - developed by Alexander the Great's forces for use in firstly, the other Greek territories that his father (Philip of Macedonia) and he conquered.

  - then, later, used as the Common Language in all parts of the Persian Empire that his combined Greco/Macedonian armies conquered.

  Most of its words came from the Attic dialect, but it also contained words from the other major Greek dialects - such as Dorian, Aeolian and Ionian. In this way, it is like certain modern languages, such as:

  (1) Urdu - the national language of Pakistan. 80% of its words are from the Arabic language, the rest from Persian, Hindi, and Turkish. But it is well and truly a language in its own right.

  2) Tok Pisin - the national language of Papua New Guinea. 85% of its words are from English, the rest from various other PNG languages, Portuguese, Fijian, and Indonesian. (But - many of the English words are changed in meaning, its gramatical structure is totally Melanesian, and anybody thinking that if they speak English, they will automatically speak correct Tok Pisin is very wrong!)

  3) Bahasa Indonesian - the national language of Indonesia. A lingua franca developed from all the many regional languages of Indonesia.

  Likewise, Koine Greek does contain differences in grammar, vocabulary and pronunciation from Attic.

  Furthermore, Koine Greek itself evolved over the 600 years of the Hellenistic period. By the time the New Testament was written, this language had already been in use for over 300 years - something like the time difference between the Archaic English of Shakespeare's time and modern English. During that time, its already existing differences from Attic would have been accentuated.

  Also, 21 semester hours of learning hardly rates a person as a "scholar". It must be remembered, too, that Frederick Franz never graduated - he dropped out of college quite early in the piece. (When I first began a "bible study" with the Witnesses, I was assured that FW Franz was "the foremost scholar of Greek and Hebrew in the world." For a long time, I actually believed that!)

  When translating something with such far-reaching consequences as the Bible, is a brief education in a related language sufficient to inspire confidence? Can you trust a translator who has only a "close enough" level of education? I think not!

  Bill.